What then? Had we been a local church, should we divide into new local churches were there is agreement, of should we stay “united” and argue over doctrine? Ideally, we would dicuss it and come to concensu, in the real world, we are individuals who have our own views, shaped by life experiences, wishful thinking and of course, our own stuborness and pride.

For me, I would rather have the variety that denominations provide, so that people can united and focus on God, rather than stay together ‘united’ in one place an squabble over who is right. Whether in a case like this, the people stay together or split, it does not prevent divisions. Divisions can exist between denominations or within one, so the issue of division is clearly not the same as the question of denominations.

When there is a difference in belief or practice between denominations or inside of them, the question will naturally come up: “Who is right?”

I estimate that in most cases, individuals will assume that they are the right one. Odds of that, are probably no better than 50/50. My guess is that in many cases, there are so many opinions that mostlikey, most of the opinions are wrong, leaving a minority with the correct view, but of course, you are one of those who hold the correct minority view. This is similar to how people respond to the question: “Are you a better than average driver?” More than ninety percent of drivers answer yes to that question.

In some cases where the question might be asked about who is correct, the possibility exists that correctness is no the most important thing, diferences are allowed.

Rom 14:5-7

5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
NIV

1 Cor chapter 7 also shows that some things, are an individual choice, where even though the choice is important, both are acceptable. I won’t quote it here as the context is not that relevant, but you can look it up if you have a mind to.

My point is, that I think that the Lord would have us not participate in infighting, and denominations are one way to minimize that. Who can say which is the one, true denomination? If by that we are asking if Baptist, Methodists, Roman Catholics, etc. or some other denomination has all the right answers and practices, of the tens of thousands of denomination, now more than one of them can be 100% correct (unless at least two agree 100%). I suspect that none of them is 100% correct, and am confident that they all have errors. However, most are good places to belong where you can grow and worship God in liberty and in truth.

I for one, do not care to criticise any denomination as such, I prefer to point out the specific doctrines and practices that are not in line with scripture, and these things which I believe to be errors, are so in and of themselves without regard to any denominationsl name associated with them.

I enjoy the differences and freedom of though, though I am passionate about what I percieve to be grievous errors and am vocal about them. It is not doctrine or religious practice that unites us, it is Jesus who does that. You might disagree with me, but if you belong to Jesus, you are part of my family and I am part of yours.

Mainly this has come about because of the hardness of their hearts and their beliefs not taking into consideration that there’s only one teaching and one belief and this has already been taught to us by the Apostles.

Jeremiah 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: (this means empty unknowledgeable) they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. (they teach their tradition not the word based on God’s fact)

Jeremiah 23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

The bible does not teach us to separate ourselves into dominations. The word domination has derived from the word divide or separate Christ can not be divided He is who He is and we are going to have to conform to Him not the other way around. Paul explained this to the Corinthians when Paul heard that many were separating themselves to follow other teaching.

1st Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

This scripture is telling us about what we have come to know today as the church domination this is actually the separation of the church for example many Christians of today will represents themselves by their domination such as I am Catholic, I am Baptist or I am full Gospel, etc.. This is not what the Bible teaches us to do and it’s surely not what the Prophets taught us to do.

The scripture teaches us quite the opposite so who are you going to believe man or God’s word taught by His Prophets. Paul taught against following the word by the divisions of men but rather follow the teaching based on Christ’s teaching and Him alone.

1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

But we do have true teachers very few but God said He would send you teachers after His heart. And remember what the word says:
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Many people are listening to un learned teachers, teachers that have been taught under their traditionally teachers and it is very far from what the word of that Christ teaches us through His Prophets. We have to come to our own decision rather we want to know our Savior based on His truth or the fictions of men based on their traditional teachings which is not based on the facts of the bible but rather their thoughts.

Jeremiah 2:11 Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.
Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

There is only one way to God and it is not based on my thought or other peoples opinions but rather based on the teaching of the Prophets which is all based on facts of the bible.

The Prophets wrote and taught us what we needed to know now we need teachers after God’s heart to bring this forth to us in the simplicity in which it was written and to teach this as the prophets taught it than. Because God’s word will never change it is the same yesterday today and forever.

Today a lot of teaching coming from the pulpit is based on the traditions of men and their teaching and is not based on the word of God but primary based on their thoughts. Jeremiah 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

God Bless

First of, the apllication of the mathematical model is not really appropriate. Math is the hardest of the hard sciences. The Bible is not a hard science. Much of it is about relationships. Relationships with God, with each other, and with our society around us. Each personality, is individual, each individual, has unique experiences. While the Gospel itself, can be rendered into a formula perhaps, and there is only one formula which is correct on salvation which is presented in the New Testament, the Bible deals with things other than salvation.

How, do we live our lives? Love God, love you neighbor, another formula perhaps. What elements make for fulfilling that? That varies on a case by case basis. The kinds of differences that I was addressing, were not differences in key doctrine. What we eat and drink, what we wear, are topics addressed by the bible, and are not the same for everyone.

When the apostles were advancing the Gospel, the only Bible they had, was the Old Testament. The did not see fit, to require strict adherance to the law, to Gentile converts. The did however, have some requirements. One that I can require, was to avoid food sacrificed to idols. I am not sure where I could even find that today. I certainly have never asked my grocer if my food was sacrificed.

Modes of baptism, how does that come in? Clearly, full immersion is the model in the Bible. Shall we require that of people who live in arrid regions where water is scarce? Do all women need to pray onlt with their heads covered? I am not going to decide these things for others. I think that we are informed by the Bible, that we have a certain amount of liberty in Christ.

It is my belief, that God looks upon our hearts, it is man that looks on the outside. It is the outside differences, that are the differences that I was referring to regarding denominationalism.

Each individual, is responsible for his own actions in life, to God, and God, is the final judge of those actions.

as I said in another blog, I am not prepared to stone people to death for their sins. I may be wrong in that, but I am willing to let Jesus present my case as my advocate, before God the Father, and I trust him in that.

So, I am with you 100% on sound doctrine, both the importance of it, and the need to be united with our brethren who hold to it. I also see no harm in being in a denomination which has practices which differ from others, as long as we all recognize our unity where it counts.

Omegaman

It is nice to see Christians peacefully coming together to discuss the matters in our lives that matter most. God’s Word and the body of Christ. I can feel a sense of genuine interest and desire to know more of the things of God in this group and I say thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to read my rather long reply.(Sorry for the short novel) However, I must disagree with some of the views expressed regarding Denominational divisions in Christ’s body. Specifically the general tone of acceptance of its very existence. Divisions in the Body of Christ are neither scripturally acceptable nor profitable for the body. I would agree with some of those who posted that denomination divisions are largely the results of doctrinal differences. However, unfortunately in many cases it is for other reasons such as style of worship, quality of the choir, or even what time the morning services ends (before football?). Choosing a church based on sound doctrinal Truth based on scripture is the biblical requirement we should be using rather then what feels nice for us or finding a place were our “ears will be tickled.” The question for many is who says what “sound biblical doctrine” is. Jesus says our foundation of our lives and faith should be built off his Words. The flesh would lead us to believe the “Truth is in the eye of the beholder.”

Ironically the bible is very clear that there be NO divisions among the Church regarding doctrine. Sadly today there are many different versions of the Gospel. There is only one truth and one false. Despite how politically incorrect it may sound but when dealing with a universal truth, such as the Word of God is, and there are foundation differences somebody is going to be dangerously wrong. I would liken the approach we should take to the bible to the approach the world uses in teaching mathematics. The comments made previously that people with different cultures and languages etc. will come to differences. However, in mathematics throughout the world it is generally universally taught despite language or cultural differences. Two plus two equals 4 in America as well as it will be 4 in China, Africa, Europe, etc. It is the same as you advance to all areas of math. If Math can have a universal Truth why don’t we see that God’s word does also and we should approached it that way? Now let say tomorrow Canada decides to make 2+2=5, I assume the rest of the world would try to first show them mathematically how they have missed the mark and explain the computations based on the principles of Math. However, if Canada insists to still “interpret” it differently it would do them no good if they expected to use such interpretations when dealing/trading etc. w/the rest of the world. If they refused to change they would eventually be either forced to accept the truth or be excommunicated from the rest of the world markets. This is similar how the Early church approached the truth and sound doctrine. They used the Bible as the “answer key” book and based on the teachings and explanations they rec’d from Jesus/Apostles/Disciples and the Holy Spirit they held to one universal truth no exceptions. (At least in the beginning while the Apostles were living) Failure to follow to such doctrine or Truth would lead to excommunication from the rest of the body.

Differences in interpretation of the Word are definitely not a new concept. During the period of the 1st Orthodox Church there were people who would interpret the bible differently and formed separate denominations groups separate from the Orthodox Church that the Apostles were attending. However they handled it a lot differently then it is today. There were many groups with other views then the Orthodox Church. However, these groups were not even called Christians they were called names such as Gnostics, Jewish, pseudo Christians, Infidels, “accursed” etc. Paul and the disciples etc were very clear to the Orthodox Church that any deviation from sound doctrine, one universal truth is no truth at all. Why? Because 2+2 will always be 4 and God’s Word has One Universal truth and all other versions should be considered heresy. I know the next question one may be saying now is what and who has the correct interpretation. My point in this (extremely long) reply is not specifically to advocate which doctrine is truth but to address our approach in casually accepting so many different doctrines. This is why it is so important that everyone must study the Bible diligently on there own with the help of the Holy Spirit to guide us to all Truth. The body of Christ needs to approach our interpretation’s of Christ’s doctrines and Gospel with the expectation that there is only one Universal truth and all others version are false. Then maybe we would no longer say “God Speed” to any version in which we know to be scripturally incorrect. I pray and believe beloved that One day after God has finished purifying his Church in these End days we will be as Jesus prayed for us to be: “Let them be one even as we are One.”

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you all through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord. 2 Pet. 1:2

With Love in Christ,

Enoch

Please consider some of the following verses.

Galatians 1:8-9: 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 John 1:10-11: 10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

1 Timothy 6:3-5: 3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

2 Timothy 4:3-4: 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. (NASB)

John 17:20-23: 20”Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”

Largely, I agree with youe statements above Ted. My comments, will mostly be additions to what you have said, not disagreements, and I think, you will agree with what I have to say also.

The things you mentioned above, appear to me, to be a rough recipe for living a Godly life. Indeed, we do not need much doctrine for that. No Bible ever needs to be read by a person in order for them to receive God’s lve and salvation, or for them to lead a life pleasing to God.

However, the Bible is our guiding light, it tells us what we must do to be saved, how we are to lead a God pleasing life. These things are doctrines. I am going to make a distinction here, between two words. It may not be an accurate one, but for the purposes of this response, you’ll get the idea. There is doctrine, and there is dogma. To me, doctine is the things that the bible teaches, which help us in our wlak, things that are important, things which are clearly, what God has spoken through His prophets, His apostles, and others whom He moved upon to write scripture. Dogma, is the things that denominations squabble over. It is the opinions of men, regarding the interpretation and application of scripture, and taught to people in a way, that makes it seem as important as doctrine.

The return of Christ is doctrine
The timing of his return is dogma

Salvation by grace is doctrine
“once saved always saved”, is dogma

Dogma can be true, don’t get me wrong. The difference, as I am defining it, is that dogma is uncertain views held with arrogant conviction and imposed on others.

There is one section in your comment, that I am replying to in particular. You said:

“At the bottom, about the only doctrines we need acknowledge the Lord God, his Son Jesus, and his Spirit as supreme, and as overflowing love, love in which he enables us, and requires us to participate.
What we REALLY need is love, humility, and the Spirit of God in us, so our lives become manifestations of his love.”

You left yourself an out by including the word “about” in the first line, had you not done so, you would be getting disagreement from me. I think the above quote, downplaces the fact that there are some very important doctrines. For example – the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:12-19

12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Paul puts a huge emphasis on this here, saying that apart from the resurrection, our faith is useless, and that if it is not true, then we are liars about God.

In another place he wrote:

Rom 10:9-11
9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Again, a stress on the doctrine or the resurrection. This doctrine is emphasized throughout the Bible, and for one, while it might be that there are minimal doctrines regarding salvation in simple terms, and “love God and your neighbor” may sum up most of what we need to do do live a Godly life, the fact remains that the bible is a large collection of documents, that God intends for us to read and understand.

Personally, I think that is an individual responsibilty for any who are able, while sadly many do not read and learn and understand, but instead, place their faith in someone elses ability to interpret scripture and then tell them what to think.

Teachers, are of course, one of God’s gifts to the church, and they are needed. Personal responibility is also needed, they go hand in hand.

2 Tim 2:15
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.

Failing to do that is inviting the following:

2 Tim 4:2-5
2 Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.

As I said, I think you will agree with the above, this is not contradiction but an attempt to add clarity to the fact that there are doctrines which are important to know and understand. At the smae time, we need to be about our job of living doctirnes out in our lives, not just knowing them and talking about them:

James 1:19-27

19 This you know, my beloved brethren. But let everyone be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. 22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man shall be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. 27 This is pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father, to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Are we on the same page?

Thanks for your comments Ted, Omegaman

Thank you for providing a forum. I would be pleased to receive your comments.

Yours in Christ, Ted

The comment on sound doctrine and practice are noted and I agree! As one poster put it and I agree, “I have not found a denomination which matches my beliefs on every point of theology, though I did find an independent church once that was probably as close as humanly possible.” To preach the bible is the way. God have mercy on those that would take away from those who have so little. There are still saints attending those denominational churches and they are doing great things in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. Pray for them.

KC